Brookings Productivity Festival: DeLong Edited Transcript (September 9, 2016)

The Productivity Puzzle: How Can We Speed Up the Growth of the Economy?


First, I need to stop flashing to the dystopian future which Bronwyn here has made me imagine. It is one in which drones overfly my house with chemical sensors constantly sniffing to see if I am cooking Kung Pao Pastrami–without having bought the required intellectual property license from Mission Chinese…

Deep breath…

Three big things have been going on with respect to productivity growth here in the United States over the past half century.

First came the productivity growth slowdown proper: If you had, forty-five years ago, asked a then appallingly young Martin Baily how prosperous the U.S. would be in 2025, he would then have bet that GDP per capita in 2025 would $125,000 in 2009-value dollars. The productivity slowdown that began after 1973 pushed that estimate down to $80,000 2009-value dollars of per capita GDP as of 2025. That is the forecast that Martin would have made–did make–throughout the 1980s and well into the 1990s.

Second came the information age growth spurt of 1995-2004: It looked like a return to the pre-1973 old normal in productivity growth driven by the technological revolution in information and communication technology. We hoped that it was a permanent shift. It turned out to be a one-time blip: first up, then down.

Third came 2008. After 2008, we are no longer expecting $80,000 of 2009-value dollars of per capita GDP in 2025. We are expecting only $63,000. This is a second big jump down, one very closely tied to what happened in 2008, and one of remarkably large magnitude given that come 2025 it will have had less than two decades to cumulate and compound.

These are three–four if you want to distinguish the bounce-up in 1995 from the bounce-down in 2004–different phenomena. They need to be analyzed separately and distinctly.

Consider 2008: We ought to have had a substantial recovery back to the pre-2008 trend after the 2008-2009 crisis. We did not. (Bob Barro will talk a bunch about that anomalous surprise later on.) I merely want to stress now that our failure to see a true and proper recovery back toward if not to the pre-financial crisis trend is not because our economy has become sclerotic. It is not because the economy has lost its ability to reallocate resources to more productive uses as a result of market price signals. Consider the period 2005-2008. The economy reallocated resources fine from 2005-2008 away from housing and into exports, investment, and other categories. It did so financial markets changed their views of the housing sector. As their views of the housing sector changed, they sent different price signals to the real economy. And businesses responded to incentives on a truly remarkable and massive level in an astonishingly smooth way. Housing construction sat down. Business investment and exports stood up. And it all happened without a recession.

Then with what happened in 2008 came the big problem. The financial crisis created a low-pressure high-unemployment economy. After 2008 we hit the zero lower bound on interest rates. Optimism about how effective Federal Reserve quantitative easing and forward guidance polices could be turned out to be wrong.

Then we hit the economy on the head with the fiscal-austerity brick—mostly at the state and local level, but at the federal level as well. We hit it on the head over and over again. With interest rates at zero, the Federal Reserve finds no way to signal exports and business investment that they really should be doing more, and should be taking up the slack from fiscal austerity that was caused by hitting the economy on the head with the fiscal-austerity brick over and over again.

Moreover, we did nothing to restructure housing finance to assist peoples cared and panicked after the housing crash and living in their sisters’ basements from forming households of their own, and moving out.

And productivity growth collapsed and has stayed collapsed.

Why? I find myself very impressed with analyses like those of Steve Davis and Till von Wächter, of Gabe Chodorow-Reich and Johannes Weiland, and of many others. They say that it really matters for the process of creative destruction and reallocation whether it takes places in a high- or a low-pressure economy. Caught up in a mass layoff–something that is clearly in no way a signal of your skill level, productivity, or work ethic–when unemployment is low? You lose maybe 5% of your income over the next 20 years. Caught up in a mass layoff when unemployment is high? Your loss is more like 20% of your income over the next 20 years. “Employment flexibility” has very different consequences for long-run productivity growth depending on whether that flexibility leads you to move to a higher-productivity job or to unemployment or out of the labor force altogether. These macro-micro linkages are very clear in the labor literature. They seem barely noticed in the productivity literature.

Can we still recover from this post-2008 disaster?

First, I think we need to stop calling it the “Great Recession”. It will soon be the “Longer Depression”–longer than the Great Depression. It already is in Europe. Can we recover?:

  • Back in 2009 I would have said: yes, we will recover easily
  • Right here in 2012 Larry Summers and I said we could recover straightforwardly–but only with the right policies.
  • Now? There are still people like Gerry Friedman who are very optimistic, who say that we could, and that it would be if not easy at least straightforward. I am not arguing with Gerry Friedman until November 15th. I will argue with him then.

Aside from striving for a high-pressure economy and hoping that Gerry Friedman is right–which Martin did recommend–what can we do?

There is no reason why reversing the poorly-understood factors that generated the first 1973 slowdown and that turned 1995-2004 into a temporary blip rather than a permanent shift should be the highest priority when we seek for policies to boost productivity. We should, instead, look for low-hanging fruit. What is the low-hanging fruit here?

I would focus on our value-subtracting industries:

  • In finance we now pay some 8% of GDP—2% of asset value per year on an asset base equal to 4 times annual GDP. We used to 3% of GDP —1% and change of asset value a year for assets equal to 2.5 annual GDP. It does not seem to me that our corporate control or our allocation of investment is any better now than it was then. Certainly people now are trading against themselves more, and thus exerting a lot more price pressure against themselves. They are making the princes of Wall Street rich. Is there any increase in properly-measured real useful financial services that we are buying for this extra 5% of GDP? Paul Volcker does not think so. And I agree.

  • In health care administration we now pay another excess 5% of GDP. Our doctors, nurses, and pharmacists do wonderful things. But as Princeton’s Uwe Reinhart likes to say, you do the accounting and our health care administrators are about one-eighth as productive as German administrators. Why? Because they’re all working against each other. Half are trying to get insurance companies to pay bills. The other half are trying to find reasons why this particular set of bills should not be paid by the insurance company. Do any of you understand your health insurance EOB—Explanations of Benefits? If so, I congratulate you! Or, rather, I do not congratulate you: I there’s something psychologically wrong with you if you do understand them.

  • Mass incarceration—add up the effects on human capital and find another 2% of GDP that other countries do not pay that we are spending for, as best as I can see, no net value whatsoever.

  • The bet that we have made over and over again over the past 35 years that what the economy really needs is lower taxes on the rich. Elite conspicuous consumption is, by definition, not a source of social welfare–it is utility for the rich extracted by spite from the rest. It shows up in GDP as a plus. It does not show up as a plus in any even half-plausible societal well-being calculation.

  • NIMBYism. At this conference we have talked a little bit about occupational NIMBYism. It may be a big factor—I am not convinced, but I also am not unconvinced. But there is more. As Bronwyn said yesterday, anyone who lives in San Francisco or D.C. or Boston has got to be very impressed with residential and land-use NIMBYism as a major factor. But our judgment that land-use NIMBYism is an important factor may just be the myopia of where we Route 128 and Silicon Valley people have to live.

In my remaining time, I wish to echo what Bronwyn was saying: We need to more attention to the government’s regulation and management of research and development. We have a world that is increasingly non-Smithian, in terms of what we make and where value comes from. Yet our government seems increasingly confined to four roles: a military, a social insurance company, a protector of property rights—especially of stringent and quite probably counterproductive at the margin intellectual property rights—and an enforcer of contracts. It seems, increasingly, on autopilot with respect to other things. That cannot be healthy at all.

INTERRUPTION: “You didn’t use the words ‘public investment’ once.”

I thought you would. (Laughter)

I did include an allusion to Larry Summers’s and my paper that we gave in this space back in 2012. I hereby incorporate that entire paper by reference in my revised and extended remarks.


NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage

Extra Slides:

NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage NewImage

Brookings Productivity Festival on Friday

Real Gross Domestic Product FRED St Louis Fed

The current discussion of “slow growth in measured productivity” here in the U.S. seems to suffer from a great deal of confusion. From my perspective, there are six things going on:

  1. Since the 1920s, the rise of non-Smithian information goods…
  2. Since 1973, the productivity slowdown…
  3. Since 1995, the semiconductor-driven infotech speedup…
  4. Since 2004, Moore’s Law hitting the wall…
  5. Since 2008, what we will soon be calling “The Longer Depression”…
  6. And, remember, policy changes to speed productivity growth may well be nearly orthogonal to all of the above save (5)…

To talk about the cause of “slow growth in measured productivity” as if it is just one, not five, things causes confusion. To identify one or a small number of causes of a single thing that is “slow growth in measured productivity” causes great confusion. And then to insist that the best policy move is to undo that one or small number of thing causes even greater confusion…

The productivity puzzle: How can we speed up the growth of the economy? Friday, September 9, 2016, 9:30 – 11:00 am, Falk Auditorium: The Brookings Institution:

After nearly a decade of strong productivity growth starting in the mid-1990s, productivity growth has slowed down over the most recent decade. Output per hour worked in the U.S. business sector has grown at only 1.3 percent per year from 2004 to 2015, and growth was even slower from 2010 to 2015 at just 0.5 percent a year. These rates are only half or less of the pace of growth achieved in the past.

The United States is not alone in facing this problem, as all of the major advanced economies have also seen slow productivity growth. This slow growth has been a major cause of weak overall GDP growth, stagnation in real wages and household incomes, and it strongly impacts government revenues and the deficit.

On September 9, 2016 the Initiative on Business and Public Policy and the Hutchins Center on Fiscal and Monetary Policy at Brookings will host a forum on the policy implications of the growth slowdown. Senior Fellow Martin Baily will present an overview paper on the causes of the slowdown, followed by a panel discussion on the most effective policies to enhance productivity performance. After the panel discussion, panelists will take questions from the audience. The event will be webcast live.

Join the conversation on Twitter at #Productivity

Welcome: Louise Seiner

Paper: Martin Baily

Panel: Moderator: David Wessel

  • Jonathan Baker
  • Robert Barro
  • J. Bradford DeLong
  • Bronwyn Hall

Must-Read: Ezra Klein: Technology Is Changing How We Live

Must-Read: Ezra Klein: Technology Is Changing How We Live: “But it needs to change how we work…

…The closest the economics profession has to a measure of technological progress is an indicator called total factor productivity, or TFP. It’s a bit of an odd concept: It measures the productivity gains left over after accounting for the growth of the workforce and capital investments. When TFP is rising, it means the same number of people, working with the same amount of land and machinery, are able to make more than they were before. It’s our best attempt to measure the hard-to-define bundle of innovations and improvements that keep living standards rising. It means we’re figuring out how to, in Steve Jobs’s famous formulation, work smarter. If TFP goes flat, then so do living standards. And TFP has gone flat — or at least flatter — in recent decades….

What Thiel can’t quite understand is why his fellow founders and venture capitalists can’t see what he sees, why they’re so damn optimistic and self-satisfied amidst an obvious, rolling disaster for human betterment…. Thiel’s peers in Silicon Valley have a different, simpler explanation. To many of them, the numbers are simply wrong…. Hal Varian, the chief economist at Google, is… a skeptic. ‘The question is whether [productivity] is measuring the wrong things,’ he told me. Bill Gates agrees. During our conversation, he rattled off a few of the ways our lives have been improved in recent years — digital photos, easier hotel booking, cheap GPS, nearly costless communication with friends. ‘The way the productivity figures are done isn’t very good at capturing those quality of service–type improvements,’ he said.

There’s much to be said for this argument. Measures of productivity are based on the sum total of goods and services the economy produces for sale. But many digital-era products are given away for free, and so never have an opportunity to show themselves in GDP statistics. Take Google Maps. I have a crap sense of direction, so it’s no exaggeration to say Google Maps has changed my life. I would pay hundreds of dollars a year for the product. In practice, I pay nothing. In terms of its direct contribution to GDP, Google Maps boosts Google’s advertising business by feeding my data back to the company so they can target ads more effectively, and it probably boosts the amount of money I fork over to Verizon for my data plan. But that’s not worth hundreds of dollars to Google, or to the economy as a whole. The result is that GDP data might undercount the value of Google Maps in a way it didn’t undercount the value of, say, Garmin GPS devices. This, Varian argues, is a systemic problem with the way we measure GDP….

The gap between what I pay for Google Maps and the value I get from it is called ‘consumer surplus,’ and it’s Silicon Valley’s best defense against the grim story told by the productivity statistics. The argument is that we’ve broken our country’s productivity statistics because so many of our great new technologies are free or nearly free to the consumer. When Henry Ford began pumping out cars, people bought his cars, and so their value showed up in GDP. Depending on the day you check, the stock market routinely certifies Google — excuse me, Alphabet — as the world’s most valuable company, but few of us ever cut Larry Page or Sergei Brin a check…. The other problem the productivity skeptics bring up are so-called ‘step changes’ — new goods that represent such a massive change in human welfare that trying to account for them by measuring prices and inflation seems borderline ridiculous. The economist Diane Coyle puts this well. In 1836, she notes, Nathan Mayer Rothschild died from an abscessed tooth. ‘What might the richest man in the world at the time have paid for an antibiotic, if only they had been invented?’ Surely more than the actual cost of an antibiotic….

‘Yes, productivity numbers do miss innovation gains and quality improvements,’ sighs John Fernald, an economist at the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank who has studied productivity statistics extensively. ‘But they’ve always been missing that.’… Consider Google Maps again. It’s true that using the app is free. But the productivity gains it enables should show in other parts of the economy. If we are getting places faster and more reliably, that should allow us to make more things, have more meetings, make more connections, create more value….

Perhaps the best way to value the digital age’s advances is by trying to put a price on the time we spend using things like Facebook. Syverson used extremely generous assumptions about the value of our time, and took as a given that we would use online services even if we had to pay for them. Even then, he found the consumer surplus only fills a third of the productivity gap…. A March paper from David Byrne, John Fernald, and Marshall Reinsdorf… comes to similar conclusions. ‘The major ‘cost’ to consumers of Facebook, Google, and the like is not the broadband access, the cell phone service, or the phone or computer; rather, it is the opportunity cost of time,’ they concluded. ‘But that time cost … is akin to the consumer surplus obtained from television (an old economy invention) or from playing soccer with one’s children.’…

There’s a simple explanation for the disconnect between how much it feels like technology has changed our lives and how absent it is from our economic data: It’s changing how we play and relax more than it’s changing how we work and produce. As my colleague Matthew Yglesias has written, ‘Digital technology has transformed a handful of industries in the media/entertainment space that occupy a mindshare that’s out of proportion to their overall economic importance. The robots aren’t taking our jobs; they’re taking our leisure’…

Must-Read: Edward Luce: The Mystery of Weak US Productivity

Must-Read: Edward Luce: The Mystery of Weak US Productivity: “From your drone home delivery to that oncoming driverless car, change seems to be accelerating…

…Warren Buffett, the great investor, promises that our children’s generation will be the ‘luckiest crop in history’. Everywhere the world is speeding up except, that is, in the productivity numbers. This year, for the first time in more than 30 years, US productivity growth will almost certainly turn negative following a decade of sharp slowdown. Yet our Fitbits seem to be telling us otherwise. Which should we trust–the economic statistics or our own lying eyes?…

At just over 2 per cent, US trend growth is barely half the level it was a generation ago. As Paul Krugman put it: ‘Productivity isn’t everything, but in the long run it is almost everything.’ It is possible we are simply mismeasuring things… fail[ing] to capture the utility of setting up a Facebook profile, for example, or downloading free information from Wikipedia…. But recent studies–and common sense–say our iPhones chain us to our employers even when we are at leisure. We may thus be exaggerating productivity growth by undercounting how much we work. The latter certainly fits with the experience of most of the US labour force….

Most Americans have suffered from indifferent or declining wages in the past 15 years or so…. For the first time the next generation of US workers will be less educated than the previous, according to the OECD, which means worse is probably yet to come…. It is also possible we are on the cusp of a renaissance… reaping the benefit of artificial intelligence, personalised medicine or take your pick. This may better fit our own fevered imaginations. Or it could be a chimera. Until then, the US and most of the west are stuck with a deepening productivity crisis….

Imagine the US takes much the same course in the next ten years as it has over the last. That would mean a further corrosion of US infrastructure, continued relative decline in the quality of public education, and atrophying middle workforce skills. It would also hasten the breakaway of urban America’s most gilded enclaves, further enriching the educated elites…. If you think Mr Trump’s rise is ominous, picture America after another decade like the last. Which brings me to the remedy: a universal basic income…. Today’s stagnation may be temporary or lasting. We have no way of telling. Common sense dictates we must act as though it is here to stay.

Must-read: Jan Eberly and Jim Stock: “Spring 2016 BPEA”

Must-Read: Jan Eberly and Jim Stock: Spring 2016 BPEA: “We have arranged the following program…

…Jesse Bricker [et al.]… on ‘Measuring Income and Wealth at the Top Using Administrative and Survey Data’. David M. Byrne [et al.]… on ‘Does the United States have a Productivity Problem or a Measurement Problem?’. Alberto Cavallo [et al.]… on ‘Learning from Potentially Biased Statistics: Household’s Inflation Perceptions and Expectations in Argentina’. Melissa Kearney… and Phillip Levine… on ‘Income Inequality, Social Mobility, and the Decision to Drop Out of High School’. Deborah Lucas… on ‘Credit Policy as Fiscal Policy’. Raven Molloy [et al]… on ‘Understanding Declining Fluidity in the U.S. Labor Market’…

Must-Read: Duncan Weldon: Are the Robots Taking Enough Jobs?

Must-Read: I find myself, more and more, wanting substantive integrated studies of the combination of market-firm, nonprofit and government, and within-household productivity. And I find myself less and less satisfied with current conventional GDP accounts as providing a good enough guide to what is really going on. So I am not satisfied with blanket declarations that productivity growth properly accounted-for is relatively slow:

Duncan Weldon: Are the Robots Taking Enough Jobs?: “We are transitioning to a world in which the global supply of labour…

…is less plentiful…. New workers will have to support a seemingly ever rising number of older, retired people…. It is possible to worry that the ‘robots’ aren’t taking enough jobs. That unless we see big increases in both labour-saving technology and in productivity, then the world faces a future of slower growth and an ever greater share of current workers’ incomes will be used to support the retired…

Must-Read: John Fernald: The Pre-Great-Recession Slowdown in U.S. Productivity Growth

Must-Read: I do not understand what John Fernald is getting at here: Who cares if it is not “market” but “home” production? We focus on GDP as a proxy for utility, and we focus on nonfarm business as a proxy for properly-measured GDP, no?

John Fernald: The Pre-Great-Recession Slowdown in U.S. Productivity Growth: “Counting “free” digital goods wouldn’t raise market productivity much…

…Facebook, Google, Tripadvisor, etc. are free… (but advertising supported) digital goods like free radio and TV and advertising-supported print media. Nakamura and Sokoveichik estimate this adds….2 basis points/year to growth! Benefits to consumers (based on value of time, e.g., Brynjolfsson and Oh 2012) are larger. Conceptually, this is home, not market, production (Becker, 1965). Enormous benefits… but not a shift in the market production function…

Www iie com publications papers fernald20151116ppt pdf